Don’t be alarmed if an estimate seems confusing. The estimators come into your home, take all kinds of measurements and make fancy floor plan drawings that even the best architect would be envious of. What does it mean? You look at the drawing, the square footage, and the you may think these are the areas with mold.
Wrong. That’s just a fancy floor plan of the house! There’s no way to tell from a drawing how much actual mold is. You won’t know how much mold is in the wall until you cut into the walls. If you are buying a home I hope you get pictures of the mold remediation job before they rebuilt things because you cannot tell from an estimate what work was actually done.
If things seems too complicated it’s time to ask questions, like why are some of the things they are doing necessary - others are not - and where are the basics.
Start by Reading the Narrative
Consider the following example of a house that got flooded when a pipe broke in the winter. The entire house had mold up the walls to several feet.
On the first page they discussed three separate air-lock chambers they were proposing to set up to get into the house. It was like in the movie, E.T. Having heard that mold is everywhere (including outside) the remediator wanted to prevent outdoor air from getting into the house. He was afraid that he would fail the post test otherwise. Three air lock chambers is overkill. Just open the doors and windows. The outdoor air is cleaner.
The company chosen by the client’s attorney because, “They do government work”. After two conference calls and several meetings the contractor still didn’t understand why three air locks were unnecessary. I recommended to my client that they find a different remediation company.
In a similar scenario, reading through the narrative that explained the steps the remediation company was going to take to remediate the mold I noticed what I thought was an error: They were proposing to use the HEPA negative air scrubber after the moldy drywall was removed. Wouldn’t’ you want the scrubber to be used during demolition? I called the company and asked if that was a mistake.
“Why aren’t you using the air scrubber during demolition?”, I asked.
“Because drywall is not a regulated, hazardous material”, they replied.
“Mold is not a regulated hazardous material either. Why use the scrubber at all?”
They replied, “Because the owner wants us to. But we don’t need to do it while the drywall is being removed”.
At which point I told my client to find someone else to do the job. I wasn’t getting anywhere trying to explain that the purpose of the scrubber is to create a negative air pressure to keep dust from getting into the rest of the house while the work is being done, not to clean the air of a hazardous material after the work is done. Bringing the scrubber in after most of the dust generating activities are completed is a waste of money.
Every situation is different. That’s why I offer DIY Mold Remediation Coaching — to help you decide what’s best for your home, your health, and your budget.
What should be in the estimate
- Hours for setting up containment (plastic sheeting), covering stuff, moving stuff, etc
- Hours for removing moldy drywall and rot
- Hours for sanding moldy or water damaged wood
- Hours for cleaning up the mess with soap and water
- A daily rental rate for the HEPA air scrubber -
- Filter changes (if they are really going to change them)
- Hours to take down the containment, clean the equipment, etc.
- Personal Protective Equipment (PPE): suits, respirators (save them so they can be counted)
- Fee for disposing trash (mold is not regulated material. It goes into the same trash).
What should not be in the estimate
- Antimicrobials, sealants, stain removers, ozone, fogging, etc.
- “Profit” or “Overhead”. These are typically 10% each (20% total added to the job). Hey, can I do that for the mold inspection - just add %20 to my bill. Probably not. But it seems to be the norm for some contractors.
Is there mention of killing or disinfecting mold?
If so, run from using the company that gave you that estimate.
Here’s an example on how you can save $9,500 on a mold remediation job. The following is from an estimate to remove mold in an attic. First on the estimate is:
“Kill The Mold: Disinfection and sterilization of entire attic via fogging/ atomization with a disinfectant to kill airborne spores prior to removal of contaminated materials”.
Line items include:
“Prep the house, Kill the Mold, Remove the Stains [with a stain remover], Kill The Roots to Prevent Reoccurrence, Ozonation to oxidize any remaining hidden spores, Apply Inhibitory Salt, Clean up Our Mess”.
Sounds like a lot of work but nothing is mentioned in terms of physically removing the mold. Why did it cost $9,500? If we subtract all the killing steps you can basically subtract the entire estimate. The only item left is “Prepping the House and Cleaning Up Our Mess”.
As crazy as this example seems, that is not the only company I’ve seen provide an estimates like this. Another, on the opposite side of the country, had a similar proposal. This remediation company took an air sample, found elevated levels of mold in the air in the kitchen and proposed the following:
A MOLD ERADICATION, ODOR CLEANSING & SANITIZATION PROCESS. INCLUDES:
- FOGGING 2) SURFACE APPLICATION TO VISIBLE MOLD USING EXCLUSIVE SOLUTION TO ERADICATE MOLD ROOTS AND MOLD STAINS ON HARD SURFACES 3) INSTALL EXCLUSIVE SANITIZER / ODOR MACHINE
- HEPA VACCUM
The HEPA vacuum in this case is a worthless step based on what they will have done preceding it. Imagine your kitchen. Imagine you fog a mold killer in it. Why would you vacuum afterwards? Am I supposed to believe the mold spores magically come off the walls and fly into the middle of the kitchen where they can be vacuumed up? They are charging hundreds of dollars to “HEPA” vacuum. A cleaning lady could do it better especially if you paid her what this home owner paid the mold remediator. The whole process is bogus! The total cost for this estimate was $5,500.
I called this remediator and asked, “If I let you do it your way and the air sample in the kitchen still shows elevated levels of mold are you going to be responsible and remove the mold the proper way?”. Their answer was found at the end of their proposal after a page long of Limitations & Exclusions: “No warranty is made”.
Every situation is different. That’s why I offer DIY Mold Remediation Coaching — to help you decide what’s best for your home, your health, and your budget.
Is there mention of a sealant?
If so walk away from using the company. Why does a sealant need to be used if the mold was REMOVED? The remediator might try and sell you on it being a precaution or protection against future mold. I can guarantee you that no remediator is going to warranty his work unless you fix the source of moisture that caused the mold. And unless you do that, chances are that mold will grow back regardless of any sealant used. The only benefit to using a sealant is that the remediator doesn’t have to worry about cleaning as good. He knows he will pass a “mold test” afterwards because everything will have been sealed. Don’t pay him top dollar to clean, HEPA vacuum, etc., if he’s going to apply a sealant. Don’t hire him at all. Find someone who will remove the mold.
Is bleach mentioned?
If so I hope it’s them saying bleach will not be used. Unfortunately some mold inspectors still recommend bleach. (Then again so does the CDC). I don’t think either go to continuing education courses.
Here’s a recommendation from a mold inspection company in an actual mold inspection report :
”Sanitize the cleaned structure with a 7% hydrogen peroxide or a 5:1 solution of bleach; allow a minimum contact time of 20 minutes, drying which time the structure members are to be kept visible wet with the sanitizing agent”.
The mold inspection company goes on to recommend: “Sand any discoloration produced by mold growth. After all the visible evidence of mold growth has been removed, REPEAT the sanitizing process.”
What’s wrong with this?
The sanitizing process is not necessary. Second they want you to do it twice. Third they are making things wet again. As one client of mine said, “No point in adding any more liquid. Dry it out and remove the mold.” If the mold is removed there is no mold left to sanitize.
If you get a mold inspection report that recommends bleach, disinfection, sanitizing, antimicrobials, ask for a refund and find a new mold inspector. Ask the mold inspector to cite which page of which standard recommends to use bleach or disinfectants. They won’t be able to. The exception might be the EPA or CDC documents which are out-dated as discussed earlier. Ask them to reference a page number in the ANSI, peer-reviewed, S520 standard for professional mold remediation. When they can’t (because the standard actually cautions against the use of biocides and antimicrobials) ask for a refund because you are going to have to call a different mold inspector for advice.
Is there mention of an antimicrobial?
If so, have it deleted from the estimate.
I would say walk away from working with this company but the sad truth is so many companies put anti-microbials in their estimates it might be difficult to find one that doesn't.
Antimicrobials are unnecessary. Why would it be necessary to use anti-microbials if the mold is removed? To prevent future mold growth? It won’t work. If things get wet, mold will grow. Want to prevent mold - prevent the moisture/water problems.
Think about it - doctors are worried about Penicillium resistant microbes. Mold will find a way. Even if you apply an anti-microbial that could prevent mold, likely there will be some mold, bacteria or other microbe that either today or tomorrow will be resistant to what ever anti-microbial you apply today. Anti-microbials are not the answer. And they are costing you money. Don’t use them. Don’t pay for them!
Every situation is different. That’s why I offer DIY Mold Remediation Coaching — to help you decide what’s best for your home, your health, and your budget.
Is there any anything other than plain soap and water to be used during cleaning?
Any and all chemicals which will be used should be disclosed.
By law, a Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) must be on site for any chemical used.
Ask for the MSDSs for all products the remediator will use. The reason for this is two fold. First, it makes sure the remediation company understands that sealants, antimicrobials and other products (which might behave other than how the label states) are not going to be used; Second - it gives you the opportunity to make sure no noxious chemicals are used, chemicals that could leave residual odors causing new problems for you, your tenant or future home buyer. Even if you don’t care - someone you sell or rent your home to might. Just tell the mold remediator to clean it with soap and water. To quote the New York Health Department guidelines, “Use the gentlest detergent possible”.
How much drywall will be removed?
It be hard to tell from reading an estimate. Ironically, this is not a huge money making step for remediators. They don’t charge as much for removing moldy drywall as renting air scrubbers and changing you for filter changes. But it will cost you to rebuild. The less you have to rebuild the better.
The estimate should make it clear how much is being cut to start with. More sometimes needs to be cut after you see what’s going on behind those walls or ceilings.
To give you an example of what it’s like to have too much drywall cut out, one poor home owner had half his garage ceiling removed when there was only mold over the very edge of the garage door and a small area of the ceiling in one corner.
“This time were gonna take it all out”, was the remediators proud statement. The remediator had failed the first post remediation test for this job. The remediation company had been told to remove a small area of drywall that had mold just above the garage door. They removed part of the garage ceiling but did not remove the part that actually had mold.
When they came back, just to make sure they didn’t miss anything (it would have helped if they read the mold inspection report to begin with) they removed half of the ceiling in the garage. Now the client had to rebuild half his garage. And they charged him mold remediation prices to remove half of his garage ceiling even though most of it did not have mold.
Watch the scrubber usage
It’s an easy buck for mold remediation companies. They charge you per scrubber per day. The more days they run the scrubber(s) the more money they make. Some remediators will use more than one scrubber even though one is enough.
Ask the remediator how they calculated (estimated) the number of scrubbers needed. There should be 2-4 air changes per hour (ACH) in the work area. A scrubber is rated at so many cubic feet per minute (CFM) of air flow. They should calculate out the volume of the room by multiplying the length x width x ceiling height. Divide that by 4 (the maximum number of air changes per hour you need. The result is the total CFM of air flow needed from the scrubber. Check the maximum output (CFM) on the model of scrubber to be used. If the CFM of the scrubber is enough then one scrubber will do.
The next thing to watch is if the scrubber is used correctly:
- Is it set up to create a negative air pressure in the work area?
- Is the scrubber turned off after the job is done or left running a few extra days just to make a few extra dollars?
Here’s an example of a mold remediation company charging too much: This is a small job, a closet with mold. The company brought in two of the biggest air scrubbers money can buy. When asked, they gave no answer on how they calculated the number of scrubbers required. Scrubbers come in different sizes. For this job one small scrubber would have worked. Neither scrubbers was vented outdoors. Both were simply “scrubbing the air”. So there was never any “containment” with negative air pressure.
When I showed up to do the post inspection both scrubbers were still running. I explained to the contractor that if I was going to test the air the scrubbers have to be off first. Otherwise I am testing filtered air. I was going on vacation for a few days. There were some small areas with visible mold that needed cleaning. I told the company to remove the addition mold, take one scrubber out (one scrubber was enough) and let the other scrubber run for the rest of the day, then turn it off.
I returned a week later to find both scrubbers running still. And still neither air scrubber was vented outdoors. They charged $125 per scrubber for 5 days too many (an additional $1,250). The scrubbers were contaminating the clients home with dust and mold from the previous jobs the contractor used them on. When I tested the scrubbers with a laser particle counter I found they were only removing 60% of particles, not 99.9% (the HEPA standard).
Ask your remediator if they will be leaving the air scrubber on until after post-testing is performed and results are back from the laboratory. While it might seem like a good idea to leave the scrubbers running, you can save money by turning the scrubber off after the work is done while you are waiting for laboratory results. When a mold remediator says they are ready for testing, the area should be pretty clean. Even if there is still mold, there should be less mold than there used to be. You lived in your house without an air scrubber before. Why the sudden need to have a scrubber running 24/7? The truth is it’s because mold remediators charge $100 or more per day to rent the scrubbers to you. And a few extra days of running it/them while they are waiting for the mold inspection report is a few hundred dollars more for them.
In some cases, if there is someone sick in the house or immune compromised it might be good to leave the scrubbers running all the time (if they are vented outdoors). But only because the sad truth is most mold remediators do such poor work.
You should be able to stay in your house while remediation is being performed if you have a scrubber running and it’s creating a negative air pressure properly. That’s the whole point of paying lots of money for mold remediation. It’s noisy. But you can live safely in your home or office if it’s being done correctly. In fact, with negative air pressure in the work area, the rest of your home or office may be safer than moving to a hotel or someplace else that has mold.
Beware of a mold inspection report that says, ”Vacating people from spaces adjacent to the work area is recommended”. You should not need to vacate if containment is set up correctly. If they tell you to vacate you need to worry that they don’t know what they are doing in regard to setting up a containment with negative air pressure.
Every situation is different. That’s why I offer DIY Mold Remediation Coaching — to help you decide what’s best for your home, your health, and your budget.
Should you get the ducts cleaned?
If you do you need to supervise the worker cleaning them. Duct cleaning only works good for metal ducts. If the ducts are made out of fiberboard they should be removed instead of cleaned.
If there are flex ducts they can’t be cleaned very well, even if the duct cleaning company says they have newer technologies. Flex duct is like an accordion; like a slinky. The brushes can’t get in between the creases.
If the furnace sits on a platform and there’s a wall cavity being used as a return air plenum under it, it’s usually filthy under there. No one ever looks there. There can be a big difference cleaning it. Some duct cleaning companies miss it.
Don’t use sanitizers. They are a waste of money and they can be toxic.There have been papers written on this. Call me if you need references.
Ducts are hard to clean. They will never be as clean as new but it is worth having them cleaned if you have really old ducts (ones that have never been cleaned before).
It’s worth more having the inside of the blower compartment and under the return air plenum platform cleaned than the ducts. The inside of the furnace blower compartment and the air plenum used as a return air duct (the hollow platform the furnace sits on) are dirty than the ducts. Often these are over looked by the duct cleaning company which is why you need to supervise the work. You need to ask them to open the door on the furnace and clean the blower and the inside of the furnace and the liner. Sometimes the liner is burnt or covered in dust. It should be replaced.
You have to supervise the workers cleaning the ducts to make sure they spend a bit of time at each duct. Duct cleaning estimates are based on the number of ducts cleaned, the idea being that there’s time spent at each duct. Often not as much time is spent cleaning each duct unless you are there watching.
Is there a guarantee?
What will happen if the mold remediator’s work does not pass the mold test afterwards?
Who pays for the mold inspector if he has to come back twice?
Are they making you sign a general release form? The only time they should ask you sign a release is when you refuse to have testing done afterwards. Assuming you can find a good mold inspector, testing is well worth the money spent (and if you find a bad or under insured mold inspector a waste of money). The liability will be shifted to the mold tester.
Guarantees to beware of:
“We guarantee to beat any other contractors price if it is itemized and will be duplicated exactly.”
You don’t want do duplicate a bad estimate! Does the estimate get rid mold? If so take it. If it’s shortcutting the process because the mold is being “treated” and that cost less than removing the mold, don’t take it.
“We guarantee that mold will not grow on any areas treated”. This means they treating or encapsulating the mold instead of removing it.
Beware of: “Once we are finished, the home that was treated will pass a mold test”. The key word here is “treated”. There are products that will “treat” mold but the dead mold will still be there. Using such products makes it easier to fool the mold test.
Every situation is different. That’s why I offer DIY Mold Remediation Coaching — to help you decide what’s best for your home, your health, and your budget.
Example from a Bad Estimate
This is a house with three areas that had mold: Bedroom, Laundry and kitchen. We are three remediation areas which will require three separate containment areas, 3 air scrubbers, 3 etc. It’s estimated to take 3 days.
Here are the line items on that estimate. Note, when an estimate is done by square footage it can be hard to conceptualize how much work is actually involved.
To remove 171 square feet of carpet the remediator estimated a unit price of 37 cents per square foot. That doesn’t sound bad. But this comes to a total of $63. That does not include the cost to dispose of the carpet. How many hours does it take to remove 171 SQFT of carpet? Twenty or thirty minutes? That would be $126/HR. They aren’t treating the carpet any special way. Even if it’s moldy, they just roll and rip it out.
With respect to some companies, we should remember - it’s jan estimate. It’s not the estimator's fault it’s high. How does he/she know how long things will take or how difficult it will be. He/she can’t estimate the hours so they estimates by square footage. Unless you’re there to see what actually goes on you will probably pay more than you should have if you just pay the estimate at the end of the day.
Key Points To Remember
Beware of estimates with the words: Kill, ozone, fog, seal, encapsulate, bleach, disinfect, sanitize.
Beware of “Anti-microbial” and “biocide.” Removing this step can save you 30% or more. Don’t be confused - the terms, anti-microbial, bio-cide, disinfectant, sanitizer, and so forth are all different names for the same principle.
Don’t count of Guarantees. Most guarantees are limited and do nothing to protect you against a mold remediator doing a poor job and expecting you to pay him. He’ll start citing language like, “Mold is everywhere” and, “We can’t give you a sterile house” after charging you thousands of dollars.
Need help?
I can help you prepare a mold remediation protocol, answer questions, come up with a plan for you, and provide you with language your attorney can put into a contract with remediation company.
Every situation is different. That’s why I offer DIY Mold Remediation Coaching — to help you decide what’s best for your home, your health, and your budget.